Denver Wrangler protest points to possible conflict in laws
A Denver man has launched a boycott of a bar that caters to the LGBT community because he believes the establishment’s ID verification policy discriminates against gender nonconforming individuals and is in violation of the state’s public accommodation laws.
Vito Marzano, 27, was denied entry to The Denver Wrangler at 1700 Logan St., Aug. 31 because managers said his appearance did not match his Colorado’s driver’s license, and they could not verify who he was and whether he was of legal drinking age.
Marzano was wearing a dress, makeup and a black wig. The driver’s license photo he provided the bar shows him with a beard and auburn hair. An assistant manager explained the bar’s appearance-matching ID policy and told Marzano he could not be served.
Marzano left the bar but returned shortly after with the intent to videotape a second attempt to gain entry.
His four-minute altercation with Wrangler management is posted on YouTube with more than 25,000 views and a Facebook group, started by Marzano, has about 80 members.
Marzano, in an interview with Out Front, said he has consulted with lawyers and is considering filing a complaint with Colorado’s civil rights division that handles civil disputes surrounding discrimination.
“I want people in Denver to know discrimination is not acceptable,” Marzano said. “I don’t care if it’s a bar or a Wendy’s.”
Phil Newland, The Wrangler’s general manager, said his bar is in compliance with both the state’s liquor and nondiscrimination laws, and his policies are consistently enforced.
“I don’t think my current policy has to do with gender identity,” said Newland. “My current policy is (about) how you walk into my club. How can we, as a business, establish you are who you say you are (and) that you are of age to be in the club? That’s all my policy states.”
At odds are two state laws and how they should intersect.
One law forbids bars to sell alcohol to anyone under the age of 21. If a tavern or restaurant is ticketed for violating the law, owners can face thousands of dollars in fines and will be required to close its doors on either a Friday or Saturday — traditionally busy days in the hospitality industry.
The state does not explicitly outline how bars like the Wrangler should verify a person’s age. Providing a state issued identification card such as a drivers license is not required under law; each business is left to develop its own age verification policy in light of the penalties if anyone under the age of 21 is served alcohol.
The second law forbids businesses that offer goods and services like hotels or retail stores from discriminating against anyone’s actual or perceived gender identity or expression.
A pamphlet provided to Out Front from Colorado’s Civil Rights Division defines gender identity as a person’s innate sense of their own gender, and defines gender expression as an external appearance, including characteristics or behaviors that are typically associated with a specific gender.
While gender identity and expression have been debated and defined in academic terms for decades, they are relatively new to the general vernacular and laws of Colorado. Colorado’s anti-discrimination laws were only amended in 2008 to provide protections for sexual orientation and gender identity.
“In academic literature, transgender is often an umbrella term that can include gender queer people, but they’re often different people,” said Metropolitan State University of Denver assistant professor of psychology Anna Ropp. “It’s a complicated issue. Who defines gender? Who defines sex? Those are good questions.”
A widely accepted definition of gender is an individual’s manifestation of their biological sex, Ropp said. Individuals define their gender based on society norms, family and friends and that person’s individual definition could be very narrow or broad, like in Marzano’s case. He defined his personal style of dress as “gender queer,” sometimes carries a purse, but seldom dresses completely in women’s clothing or wears a wig.
Marzano said he often patronized the Wrangler dressed in traditional men’s clothes prior to Aug. 31. He insists the Wrangler’s door staff and management could tell he was the person photographed in his driver’s license, but they chose not let him in because he didn’t conform to the cultural definition of what a man should look like.
“I looked exactly like my ID, just with foundation on,” he said.
But Newland stands by the bar’s policy and said his staff is instructed to turn away anyone who does not have an ID or does not appear to match the photo, even regular patrons on a first name basis with the bartenders — or the bartenders themselves.
“Consistency is the only way we can enforce our policies,” he said. “My staff knows they better have their ID on them if they want to drink here.”
One industry leader who spoke with Out Front said the situation was perplexing.
“You don’t want to risk losing your liquor license, but we don’t endorse discrimination in any way,” said Pete Meersman, CEO of the Colorado Restaurant Association. “If one of my members called me and asked, I’d probably tell them to err on the side of not serving that person.”
Meersman suggested representatives from Colorado’s civil rights division and liquor board come together and issue guidance.
Newland said he reached out to several regulatory agencies before and after the altercation with Marzano and found little help.
That could change if Marzano proceeds with an official complaint to the state. If the state were to investigate and issue a ruling, it would be one of just a handful of rulings regarding the state’s definition of gender discrimination.
This summer, the same state agency released a landmark ruling in the instance of a Fountain-Fort Carson school district restricting access to a public bathroom to a transgender student. The state said the school created a hostile environment for 6-year-old Coy Mathis when they forbid her from using the same girls restroom as her classmates.
“Mr. Marzano should expect to prove the stated reason the bar wouldn’t let him in simply wasn’t true and was a reason to discriminate against him because he was in drag,” said the Michael Silverman of the Transgender Legal Defense & Education Fund, a New York nonprofit that assisted the Mathis family in their complaint.
Newland points out his bar isn’t forbidding trans men and women from entering his establishment and said he has several trans customers.
However, Marzano said the policy sets up a class system of gender — some, he said, can’t afford to fully transition, and some don’t want to.
Marzano wants the policy changed: “I’m fine never going back to the bar. What I want to see is nobody else going through what I went through that night.”
And the American Civil Liberties Union of Colorado agrees.
“A bar can ask for ID to ensure that a patron is over 21, and the bar may need to assure itself that the photograph is indeed the patron presenting it, but that neither requires nor justifies the policy that has been challenged here,” said Mark Silverstein, the legal director here. “If a bar does indeed have a policy of excluding persons whose gender expression doesn’t match their ID, that’s not only silly, but it also effectively discriminates against transgender persons, in violation of Colorado’s anti-discrimination law.”
The Wrangler is prepared to defend its policy.
“I’m here every day for a meeting, to sit down and talk to people,” Newland said. “We are not transphobic. (The policy) is not discriminatory, it’s consistent.”
What's Your Reaction?
Though I like going there, the Wrangler is everything but bearphobic. I have a lesbian friend who they wouldn’t give the beer bust special too because “women get drink specials everywhere” WTF kind of policy is that? that’s straight up discrimination.
It’s Ladies’ night for the guys. All the straight bars have ladies only special, the W has ONE day a week of guys only specials. It’s not illegal at all.
A precedent has been set in Denver: if you arrive at a bar offering drink specials for “Ladies” and request the same special and are denied, you can sue in court and you will prevail.
Just because other bars do something doesn’t make it legal for the Wrangler to discriminate.
Pride beer bust is also open to anyone.
True, but many of these nights have been adjusted to “skirt night” legally, because it would be considered gender discrimination, therefore, any dude who wants to wear a skirt, is more than welcome to do so for a drink special.
Actually LADIES NIGHT has been challenged in Colorado courts and has lost. Westword has covered attorney Steve Horner’s tirade against such nights, as well as his lucrative rewards when bars think they can discriminate. Those offering Ladies Night do so ignorantly and are begging for losses in court.
I think every business owner has a right to set up their business the way they want. As a business owner, I want to go after a certain segment of the populations… I will arrange my business to do so. I think that this person is looking for a few minutes of glory and fame. I think this person is looking to, as I have heard him say, “bring down the Wrangler..” so is this person legitimate in his fight against discrimination??? I do not think so. He is known for being a “pissy little drag queen” as I have heard him called from those around him. If this is the case, then he needs to readjust his thinking and step back from causing more damage to our community. After all, isn’t there enough hate towards us? Why hate more… why cause more hate? that is what this is… his hatred of the Wrangler… you can hear it in his voice on his YouTube vid. you can hear it in his voice when you hear him talk…
Look, the bottom line is this, there are MANY LGBT bars in the Denver metro area, as well as other LGBT businesses, you choose to patronize those you want…if the Wrangler is not your cup of tea, then go elsewhere… there are those of us that like the Wrangler for the community it supports. The Beer busts that are on sundays, allow LGBT charities to raise money for their organizations… I think that is a good thing.
Your ad hominem attack on Marzano is petty and stupid. So is your assessment of business law in Colorado. Did you not read the article? Perhaps you’re completely ignorant of civil rights legislation and the necessity for it.
Look, the bottom line is actually THIS: if you want to operate a private membership establishment, make up your own rules. Denver Country Club has excluded Jews since it began. But if you want to operate a public business, there are laws concerning public access.
But don’t let facts get in the way of your bigotry.
“I think every business owner has a right to set up their business the way they want.”
That is exactly what is being said by business owners who discriminate against gays and lesbians: buy your wedding cake or flowers somewhere else. Rent your apartment somewhere else. Go to some other restaurant.
You’re kind of stupid when it comes to Civil Rights.
The Wrangler isn’t transphobic? Have they forgotten the graphic that used to be on their own website that shows a man in a dres using a urinal with a large “no” slash through it. Playing the potty-panic game is the exact same strategy anti-gay hate groups like Focus On The Family use. There is no excuse for this sort of transphobia and lies from our own community.
This is why I have never patronized The Wrangler.
The Wrangler’s owner used to be proudly Republican, until word got out and it was detrimental to business.
It’s annoying to hear management try to fox the law when everyone knows what they’re doing. I imagine if some regular shows up with a shaved head and a beard, but didn’t appear that way on his ID, they would turn him away… NOT.
*dress
While I think that the Wrangler has a pretty well documented history of being transphobic, I do think this brings up an interesting point. When I was 21 I had an 18 year old friend who would come to the bar in drag for this exact reason, the door people had no way of knowing that the ID he presented wasn’t him. This could be a very expensive mistake for a bar to make. I can understand a bar not even wanting to wade into those waters. I’m not sure that the Wrangler’s stated reasons and there actual reasons match, but it is an interesting dilemma.
The door people could have verified his identity in other ways: have him sign a piece of paper and compare signatures. Ask him to produce other IDs with that person’s name: library card, credit card, car registration. If he couldn’t and still insisted on being admitted, bring him a moist towel and ask him to remove the makeup.
Those are very fair alternatives to being a DICK.
What is the Wrangler’s policy during Halloween? I highly doubt that people match their appearance in their costumes with that of their issued ID. I think it IS discriminatory and completely unacceptable.
Why is our community within ourselves so intolerant? We as gay people come in all colors of the rainbow and we should embrace that fact not thwart it!
Marzano is exactly right, “…the policy sets up a class system of gender — some, he said, can’t afford to fully transition, and some don’t want to.”
There are a few issues here: there are Bi-gender, Gender Fluid, Third Gender, Gender Queer, etc gender identities that have a right to services under the same anti-discrimination laws established in this state; not all gender variant identities want to transition medically; and what this is called is gender policing, making one gender identity and expression more valid than another.
Many other bars, most bars, do not card this way and they do fine without litigation, so their argument doesn’t stand.
Also, Ropp’s characterization of gender expression, “A widely accepted definition of gender is an individual’s manifestation of their biological sex,” is only true when you talk to cisgender people that see gender this way. In the queer and queer ally communities this is absolutely false. This is how gender policing works and capitulates constant discrimination in public services.
– See more at: https://outfrontmagazine.net/focus/news/wrangler-protest-points-to-conflict-in-laws/#sthash.bnwZkO5L.dpuf
– See more at: https://outfrontmagazine.net/focus/news/wrangler-protest-points-to-conflict-in-laws/#sthash.bnwZkO5L.dpuf
At that point in the interview, I was talking about how many people think of gender, and I also discussed why this conceptualization of gender is problematic.
Phil’s statements to Outfront completely contradict what was captured on video.If there is any doubt that the Wrangler’s policy is selectively and exclusively applied to gender non comformity. Please see the excerpts from the transcript of Vito’s Wrangler encounter below.
“Manager Phil: (cuts Vito off) The law under the states you must have an appearance matching ID.
Vito: What does that mean?
Assistant Manager Pat: (to Vito) What do you think it means?Manager Phil: It means if you’re a boy. Your face, looks like your face.
Vito: So you’re saying I resemble a feminine-
Manager Phil: You do not look like your picture.Assistant Manager Pat: You don’t look like your picture.”
AND
“Vito: But I actually took my wig off and I, I turned around and said “This is my ID”. I look almost exactly like my ID.
Manager Phil: (motions his hand against his own face pointing out his facial hair)
Vito: So a beard makes a difference? Like, you deny everybody? Wait, you would deny everyone who in one photo of their ID, in their photo they got a beard taken when they go get their fucking driver’s license, but then when they shave it off you turn around and say no.
Manager Phil: The first step they have to do is go to the DMV and take a picture if they’re transgender.
Vito: It’s actually not; they have to get proof for that.
Manager Phil: (*unintelligible)
Vito: They have to get proof for that. That you’re actually saying you would deny them if they didn’t have proof.
Manager Phil: You make a request to the DMV in this, in drag.”
Additionally
“Manager Phil: (addressing Vito) So, on “Beer Busts”, it’s a men’s special only, right. Let’s say that an FTM comes in and wants to do “Beer Bust”. Her photo, his photo, is a boy in the picture. His face matches the photo, but he’s “legally” a female, but he wants to be a man, so guess what, he gets “Beer Bust”. Now –
Vito: What I’m asking you is how do you know.
Manager Phil: A male to female –
Vito: Cause you’re not answering, you’re evading the question.
Manager Phil: You’re not a transgender.
Vito: What I’m asking is how do you know?Manager Phil: Because a man who wants to be a woman would not dress like this.”
Thanks for transcribing the video.
They’re idiots at The Wrangler and don’t deserve my business.
There is an attorney in Denver, Steve Horner, who sued several bars over their Ladies Night policies and prevailed. He was covered in Westword a few times. He’s a pain in the ass, but I think he would be glad to take on the Wrangler’s unequal policies.
I just mentioned Horner on another thread addressing The Wrangler. Maybe Vito should seek him out. I would love to see The Wrangler spanked over their belligerent stupidity.
It may not be the “same” in your view, but regardless of your subjective option, it is still illegal to deny anyone entry based on their gender expression according to Colorado State Law.
er -opinion
If you honor your friends who are transgender or who perform in drag, or adore your lesbian pals, or just believe in equal rights with dignity: The Wrangler doesn’t deserve your business.
In the early 1990s Colorado’s anti-gay Amendment 2 passed: those who wanted to discriminate against gays and lesbians public access to hospitality venues (restaurants, bars, hotels, tourist attractions) and housing had won their day. Luckily it was overturned in the Colorado Supreme Court by a group of wise attorneys who prepared for just such an upset.
Now we have a gay bar that wants to discriminate against gender non-conforming people and women (lesbian and non-lesbian). There is no excuse, it’s wrong. Their inability to figure out a respectful, friendly way to work it out is puny and stupid.
I remember when the Wrangler first opened, the owner at that time was quite proud to announce he was a Republican. But when word got out and it proved bad for business, he changed his affiliation. Obviously he still a shrunken heart and pea-sized brain.
WOW, you are so full of hate.. really?? is this what we want in our community… The owner is and has never been a republican..I know the owner, and he is not and never has been… now who is telling the lie Gary?
The owner boasted he was Republican until some GLBT groups questioned it because they were planning events for the DNC in 2008.
I strongly agree. BTW: instead of “real women,” how about the phrase “biological women.” I believe you respect TG and TS women, and would never want to offend. Thanks for your comment.
How do you determine the difference and whose business is it? If the doorman truly couldn’t determine someone’s identity because of makeup or clothing or costume, then what is the back-up plan by The Wrangler: be an asshole?… seems to have served them in the past.
I worked the door at a nightclub in the 1990s and at Halloween, we had a measuring tape to take height, a scale to take weight, and we would ask for other forms of identification: library card, credit cards, auto registration. We would also have the person sign a piece of paper and compare signatures. Ask them questions about their I.D. (What’s your SS#? What year did you graduate high school? What is your zip code?).
Tinker if that was true then my transgender friend (whom I was standing in line with) wouldn’t have go through trouble when she presented her id that stated she is female. Now she hadn’t completed her full transformation physically but she did legally have that process done. The bouncer at the time looks at my girlriend and says you can’t come in cause you don’t match. I pointed the id is valid with the stated gender and she was dressed flawlessly. Still I had to walk out with her while she was embarassed. Sorry but you straight up just LIED and I’m offended that you just made that DUMB statement
I actually have a lot of facial hair. I have never done just a mustache, but when I go between clean shaven, goatee, or full-on beard, I look completely different at all three stages . . . not just younger or older. I also wear corrective lenses in the form of glasses or contacts (which can be colored), and that also changes my appearance. How about on Halloween (or any other function) where they encourage people to come in some type of costume (leather night, levi night, etc)? I think claiming that, “this is a policy which is always strictly enforced” is a cheap way out of a lot of trouble.
Maybe in response bears shouldn’t be allowed in to other bars on saturday night. It’s plain out discrimination period. As a establishment in the gay community the last thing we should be doing is discriminating against any one who is there to support LGBTQ . Grow up Wrangler, the country had to let african americans drink from the same fountain back in the day, it’s time to let men and woman and tgirls drink from the same keg!
I think everyone knows that this has nothing to do with a policy regarding ID’s. It’s because the W wants to create a space for the bear niche, and queens being present changes the atmosphere that they’re trying to create. Many of the patrons don’t want queens in ‘their’ bar, not unlike how some lesbian bars don’t want any men to be there. The ID angle is just a way to legally (maybe) make that happen.
There are other ways to sort your clientele, but I’m not giving The Wrangler any free advice because they’ve been stupid and abusive.
I have been following the situation on facebook, and at first I had a sort of blurr about the whole thing, and considered it one person trying to be really squeaky. But this article and some of these detailed comments make it pretty obvious this bar really has gone out of their way to make basically anything or anyone feminine unwelcome. I understand a picket will be coming and I will be there.
While your at it why dont you all start suing the lodo bars for their banning of street clothes and required apparel? Why not dress in drag and take your ID to a cherry creek bar or lodo bar and see if they let you in without matching ID. You could make a full time job of suing every bar in town with the exception of Mary’s, Charlie’s, Trax, and X bar. To me the wrangler is trying to create an image of clients like Suite 200. While these bars are targeting different clientele try going to Suite 200 wearing even just street clothes and you’ll never get in because they want those who portray a specific image that represents their bar. The Wrangler is doing the same thing. The video says that if this individual was trans and going through the process and had matching documentation they could get in. He could have even wiped his make up off instead of getting equipment to video tape. Was this person completely sober? That could have been an issue as well. Bars have rights to refuse service. They take a big risk even serving alcohol.
Women who claim Wrangler discrimination tend to be the ones who treat it like a straight bar and want special attention. I’ve taken many women friends there and never had a problem. I’ve also seen these other women there who expect men to fall at there feet and move them to the front of the line for drinks.
My belief is that this is a lot of smoke and dust for not a lot of fire. It’s fine if you don’t want to support it. There is a clear outline of the required dress code that those who follow the code are granted entry.
Head to lodo and see what discrimination against drag/trans really looks like. The gay bars around town always seem to be lacking customers. Why spend so much time and energy trying to ruin another one? Just makes me sick to keep seeing these bashing comments against a bar trying to uphold an establish dress code. Leave the dramatics at home.
A dress code is not the same thing as a policy which states your gender expression must match your ID. No other bar in town would deny someone entry for dressing in drag.
Let’s start a bar that caters to only white people and deny everyone else. I mean we would just be trying to portray a specific image.
While you’re at it… stop the bu||sh!t.
If I go to a LoDo bar and feel my rights as a citizen have been violated and I WANT to sue, I will. But stuff your stupid ranting to “head to LoDo” blah-blah-blah.
If it bothers you so much, why don’t YOU initiate a lawsuit?
As for you and your women friends, hurray that you didn’t encounter rude treatment. Many have.
TSA actually does not had a gender expression policy. Vito would have gotten through security just fine.
I have been enjoying The Wrangler for many years and understand and appreciate that they want to create a certain atmosphere in their bar. However, they have always discriminated against females and the transgendered community. I remember years ago, anytime a female friend would join us there, the doorman would harass her something terrible, dig through her purse like a hungry bear in a camp-ground trashcan (pun intended) and the bartenders would even charge her more when she went up for drinks. That has gotten much better in recent years and I don’t really pay much attention to it anymore.
But the fact is that The Wrangler has very openly engaged in discriminatory practices and everyone knows it. When someone with enough money takes this to DORA’s Civil Rights Division and is willing to challenge their policies in court, there are to be hundreds of potential witnesses and The Wrangler is going to get burned. This might have been cool in the 1990’s but not today. This has been coming for a long time and I hope the owner figures out his “matching id” excuse isn’t going to hold water before he is writing some big checks.
If you don’t like the policies, don’t go there. I don’t go to straight bars and demand to get a ladies night special. I also don’t go to straight bars and ogle the people there the way that some of the Wranglers own clientele who bring their “girlfriends” in with them do to us. It’s not a frikkin zoo. Yes, I’m gay. I’m cruzin for men….either get used to it or leave. Also, why intentionally dress in women’s clothing knowing its a bear/leather type bar and then cry “discrimination?” Yet another reason I’m glad I left Denver. Short sighted and self-important.
You just defended everyone who doesn’t want gays in pro sports because they might “look at them” in the locker room. You also upheld the complaints of businesses who don’t want to serve gays and lesbians: go somewhere else. I’m glad you left Denver, too.
For many, many years, there have been leather bars all over this country who will not allow entry unless you are wearing leather… it’s just a dress code! And how about restaurants that will not admit a patron without a tie and jacket? The situation at the Wrangler is the same! A business owner should be allowed to set a dress code for his business!
I fully support the Wrangler in this. These people are picking the wrong fight. Out of all the discrimination that transgenders and queens face, THIS is what they want to get all pissy about? Just because GLBT people have common enemies, does that mean if someone owns a bar that caters to one specific niche of the gay community then suddenly they are obligated to give a crap about wanting to serve all GLBT people? It’s a BAR, people! There are plenty of bars out there who are a special space for certain niches, and people generally respect that idea. Is it really so out of the question to respect the space of this group of people? Why would you want to even go to a place where you weren’t really wanted in the first place? Besides, I don’t see any bears whining about what is or isn’t happening at anyone else’s bar. Why? Because they don’t care, they’re too busy enjoying their own space. Maybe if shallow queens weren’t so quick to call a heavy hairy man disgusting, then the bears wouldn’t even have wanted to create their own space in the first place. But then when they DO create that space, it’s outrageous that the queens demand to come in and be with the people that only wanted to get away from them. It’s nuts!
You’re kind of simple, huh?
Equal civil rights means having equal access wherever you go. Period.
Black people weren’t wanted at Woolworth’s lunch counter, couldn’t they have gone somewhere else?
Gays weren’t wanted to teach in public schools or be visible at work, couldn’t they do something else?
Don’t try to walk and talk at the same time, it would be a shame to see you fail at both.
Mr. Compton your remarks of complete exaggeration only make my points stronger. Yes why don’t you focus your energy on opening a racially bias bar. Take your aggression out somewhere else. Good lord.
It’s no better pointing out the fact the owner of the Wrangler may be Republican. Why don’t you go find out his religious affiliation and bring the torch wielding villagers. Better yet lets start the witch trials all over again as this brigade of drama is already heading there.
The bottom line is the Wrangler wants to be a chill near bar without the drama. These screaming queens are nothing but trouble. Personally I’m glad they uphold their matching ID requirement.
Where were you people when the Eagle was denying everyone access? I got turned away for having tennis shoes on once. Maybe I should have wasted my time calling DORA.
So hypothetically lets say you get this changed cause the Wrangler and owner a ton of money and the landscape of clients change and it becomes the next JR’s, Mo’s, and the other gay bars closing doors for lack of business. Then what? Time to focus on another bar?
Its more like take a hint. The wrangler doesn’t want the hassle and drama of a Charlies. So let things be. Vote with your money and just don’t go there. Trust me the ones who enjoy the W atmosphere will thank you for it. Maybe you just need to poop. You’ll probably feel better.
You are comparing getting turned away for wearing tennis shoes at a leather bar to a transphobic policy? Totally not the same thing.
You know who the Eagle will not turn away? Drag queens, transfolk and gender queer invididuals, because to do so would be a clear violation of DORA.
Thanks for that info about The Eagle. It’s good to know. The few times I’ve gone it’s been to meet friends, have a drink and head out: it wasn’t our ultimate destination. But now I know everyone is welcome, and that’s good.
I’ve been at The Wrangler when there were shrieking queens, and all of them dressed as bears or in leather. “Oh Brother” has his head up his ass.
I have been to the Wrangler many times and have even planned some events there. I have known one of the doormen longer than the Wrangler has existed. And I ALWAYS have to show my ID. He knows me. Most of the doormen recognize me. But they require that I have an ID that proves I am of legal drinking age. And I don’t care that I have to show my ID. What normal person would care?
I think this is more of an issue of “my rights end where your rights begin” and the differences between a “right,” a “priviledge.” and a “responsibility.” I have the priviledge of going into the Wrangler and buying a drink. It is not my right. They have the right to refuse me service. The owner/manager has the responsibility to ensure that the people drinking there are of legal age. Why does one person’s desire to go to the Wrangler seem to outweigh the right of the employees to keep their jobs and the right of the owner to protect his investment. If the police go into a bar, they have the right and the responsibility to check patrons’ ID’s. If, in their totally subjective opinion, the ID of someone could not reasonably be used to identify a person, they could shut down the bar. Everyone loses their jobs. Owners lose their investments. That would be wrong.
The Wrangler can’t – and shouldn’t – discriminate against anyone. But are YOU willing to bet YOUR job and your coworkers’ jobs just so a stranger can have a drink? I’m not. If I worked the door, I would look at ID’s very carefully.
According to the picture supplied by this person, he was wearing large, dark sunglasses. So even his eyes could not be used to determine if the ID was his. Did he offer to take off the glasses? Did he recognize that he was putting the doorman in a difficult position to do his job effectively? It doesn’t seem like it from the video. Keep in mind: People go to jail and/or lose their jobs if the doorman doesn’t do his job effectively.
No reasonable person would be offended by having to prove who they are and that they are of legal age to drink. We have to repeat identifying information multiple times when we call our credit card companies. We have to show ID’s every time we go into a bar. We are sometimes diverted to higher security lines at the airport. Its not unreasonable to have the picture on our ID match what we look like so a doorman can determine if the ID is ours. That is not discrimination. It is our responsibility to prove who we are in these circumstances.
I don’t think the Wrangler was dealing with a reasonable person that night. It seems that he was trying to divide our community. That’s not reasonable.
Denver has a great, diverse community. We are blessed with many different bars that cater to many different niches of our community. If a bar was everything to everybody it would wind up being nothing to everyone. If you want a drag show, go to a drag bar. If you want to be with twinks, go to a twink bar. If you want a neighborhood feeling, go to a neighborhood bar. If you want a leather/levi/bear experience, go to the Wrangler. Why do people make this difficult?
Let’s use this energy to fight for our rights – not to fight someone within our community who is just trying to run a successful business without having it ruined with infighting.
i don’t think anyone is arguing using an ID to verify age, but according to Phil’s own statements in the video he was basing it on gender presentation, which is strictly illegal. Does not matter if you disagree with the law, it is the law.
Once again, here is the excerpt from the transcript. Please stick to the facts.
“Manager Phil: (cuts Vito off) The law under the states you must have an appearance matching ID.
Vito: What does that mean?
Assistant Manager Pat: (to Vito) What do you think it means?Manager Phil: It means if you’re a boy. Your face, looks like your face.
Vito: So you’re saying I resemble a feminine-
Manager Phil: You do not look like your picture.Assistant Manager Pat: You don’t look like your picture.”
AND
“Vito: But I actually took my wig off and I, I turned around and said “This is my ID”. I look almost exactly like my ID.
Manager Phil: (motions his hand against his own face pointing out his facial hair)
Vito: So a beard makes a difference? Like, you deny everybody? Wait, you would deny everyone who in one photo of their ID, in their photo they got a beard taken when they go get their fucking driver’s license, but then when they shave it off you turn around and say no.
Manager Phil: The first step they have to do is go to the DMV and take a picture if they’re transgender.
Vito: It’s actually not; they have to get proof for that.
Manager Phil: (*unintelligible)
Vito: They have to get proof for that. That you’re actually saying you would deny them if they didn’t have proof.
Manager Phil: You make a request to the DMV in this, in drag.”
Additionally
“Manager Phil: (addressing Vito) So, on “Beer Busts”, it’s a men’s special only, right. Let’s say that an FTM comes in and wants to do “Beer Bust”. Her photo, his photo, is a boy in the picture. His face matches the photo, but he’s “legally” a female, but he wants to be a man, so guess what, he gets “Beer Bust”. Now –
Vito: What I’m asking you is how do you know.
Manager Phil: A male to female –
Vito: Cause you’re not answering, you’re evading the question.
Manager Phil: You’re not a transgender.
Vito: What I’m asking is how do you know?Manager Phil: Because a man who wants to be a woman would not dress like this.”
Michael Hobbs, considering your historical ties to the Mr. Leather Colorado Foundation and the Denver Boys of Leather I find your comments sad and lacking any character of the Leather values you supposedly stand for.
From the Mr. Leather Colorado Foundation’s website you will find this as art of the mission statement.
“Wherever there is ignorance, need or injustice, the Mr. Leather Colorado Foundation will offer its resources.”
I know you are no longer a part of the organization, but I would hope that you would still hold those values.
With statements like this. “If you want a drag show, go to a drag bar. If you want to be with twinks, go to a twink bar. If you want a neighborhood feeling, go to a neighborhood bar. If you want a leather/levi/bear experience, go to the Wrangler. Why do people make this difficult?”
You of all people should know Leather is comprised of individuals of all orientations and gender expresions. Shame on you!
Michael has a point… Jeff, if you do not like the Wrangler… go somewhere else. All of you, if you do not like the Wrangler, regardless of the policies there, GO ELSEWHERE! Jeez… I cannot believe you people. I would imagine that most of you have had a bad experience there in the past. It is SO OBVIOUS the you all have a “I HATE THE WRANGLER CLUB ” going here. if you hate the Wrangler …go elsewhere. Those here that enjoy the bar for the community it offers, without DRAMA (as I have found with all the DRAG QUEENS at charlies, and mary’s) , DRUGS ( that I have SEEN PERSONALLY transpire at all the other bars) , SEX ( as I have witnessed at the EAGLE). I think the Wrangler does a pretty good job in offering a fun atmosphere with little to no drama.
Not to mention that the beer bust offer other charities the opportunity to fundraise for their organizations and to good of our community. Just think, those of you who want to “SHUT THE PLACE DOWN” thirty people will lose their jobs and health benefits (yes the Wrangler offers health benefits to its employees…how many of you have that through your employer???), the Charities that rely on the beer bust revenue will be out a source of income, the community will lose a valuable tax base, and those of us who enjoy the community at the wrangler will be out as well… is this what you really want??? I suppose that Gary, and Jeff and Troy, and Jason, and Frank and all you others do not care about that… How cold and hateful you all are..WOW. What an eye opener….
they have every right not to let him in he looks nothing like his picture on his id they are simply protecting their liqueur license. Also as much as i love my drag queen friends and even used to dress myself i like to be able to go to a gay bar and not be surrounded by them sometimes and i want to thank the Wrangler for standing their ground on this
How can I publicly state that I am in support of drag queens being able to drink where they want… just not at my preferred establishment?
I mean, really, do we *need* another drunk drag queen?
The Wrangler is consistent. I once drove from Boulder to Denver to go there and forgot my ID. The Bouncers knew me personally but still wouldn’t let me in. It sucked for me but I didn’t hold it against them or the bar. They were doing their job.
I remember years ago they were doing an American Idol type contest at the wrangler and a friend of mine did sweet transvestite from rocky horror in costume which he put on at the wrangler. He was disqualified from the contest and asked to leave the bar because the wrangler doesn’t allow drag. Would they allow a person now to go to the bar as a man and then put on their hair and makeup there?
Jeremy, you are such a lier. So many people saying things about the Wrangler that are not true just trying to win ground. The person who did Sweet Transvestite was never disqualified, in fact he even placed 2nd in the finals. He was also asked to come back and participate in another show a few weeks later that the Wrangler held. Ask him yourself. I know I was there!!! This young boy, what’s his name, Vito? He needs to refocus his energy towards a real cause. I go to the Wrangler to be around MEN. Just like my Lesbian friends go to Babes Around Denver (BAD) when they want to be around only women. I want to cruise, make out, and hopefully get laid. This is why I go to the Wrangler. The last thing I want is some 27 year old boy in a dress screaming and ruining the environment. If I want to see a hilarious drag show I go see the Cycle Sluts at Mary’s, if I want to dance to country music I go to Charlie’s. If I want to listen to piano music I go the Black Crown. If I just want to sit in a quiet bar where everybody knows my name and have a beer I go to the R and R. This little boy in a dress is only attention seeking, and it is amazing to me how many people are giving it to him. My good friend who is a trans, Female to Male, has joined me several times at the Wrangler for bust and just to grab a beer. The Wrangler bar is not transphobic!!! The bottom line is people…IF YOU DO NOT LIKE THE WRANGLE BAR FOR WHATEVER REASON THEN JUST DON”T FUCKING GO!!!! Little boy in a dress…get a life!!!! Give it a rest already and while you are at it go to The Dream Girls Show at Mary’s and see what REAL DRAG QUEENS look like because from your pic you cannot even call yourself a DRAG QUEEN. I wouldn’t even call you a drag princess and you are certainly not Transgendered although you seem to be using this term very loosely to make a statement that is not true. As a mental health professional, son…I just have to say look in the Out Front classifieds under Therapist and work out your issues with a professional rather then seeking attention by wining because you were not allowed to enter a bar because you did not look like the pic on your drivers license. And BTW…you are a cute boy….why do you want to be an ugly queen anyway!!!!
As a student studying to become a mental health professional, I hope I never have to work with a co-worker as discriminatory as you, Sir. Way to be respectful of diversity. Is this how you talk about your clients?
The problem with your generation is you think you should be isolated from reality. In reality, people don’t always want to hang with different people–people like people who are like themselves. There’s nothing wrong with that. And, btw, I agree that if you don’t like their dress code policy, then go elsewhere.
There are heterosexuals who feel you shouldn’t be allowed in their establishments either. The difference? You still have the privilege of going if you choose. Be a bigot if you want, but don’t expect society to make an exception to the law so that the Wrangler can discriminate others based on their gender expression.
So what is the history?? If you are going to give a blanket statement like that, please back it up with facts.. the fact is you cannot! The bar has NEVER in my 6 years of going there discriminated against anyone that I observed. The follow the laws that as best they can. Like any business, they have a right to refuse service to anyone if it may jeopardize their business, employees or patrons.
@ Jeremy – Wow, not only is that a lie, but that particular contestant took 2nd place AND was invited back to perform for Halloween. And for the record, last year was the FIRST year for their “Aberican Idol” contest. Some people just talk to talk, and some people who used to work at the Wrangler (but were fired for trying to sell pot at the bar) just want revenge, and still other people who used to DJ there and were too lazy to use the bathroom just pissed in pitchers and left it in the DJ Booth. Yeah, that’s you Gary. Lame lame lame!
Just checked with him sure was disqualified and asked to leave the bar. I said American Idol type contest and it was 8-9 years ago.
Jeremy…..You’re still making shit up dude and you know you are. You’re suppose to let go of your imaginary friends after childhood.
As it turns out, gentlemen…. Jeremy is NOT a liar at all- and happens to be quite accurate in his description of the events he spoke of above. I should know- as I was the one who was thrown out of the bar the evening in question. Sam and Jon should be a little more cautious about maliciously accusing someone of being a “liar”- when they, themselves, are the ones presenting the facts incorrectly. Also incorrect… I (the sweet transvestite in question) was never “invited” back into the bar- let alone, asked to perform for Halloween. In fact, I was shamed & treated like a piece of dirt. The contest that Jeremy was speaking about was the second “Survivor-karaoke” contest held at the Wrangler. I was disqualified- “86ed” from the bar for the evening- and consequently, did not place second in the finals. Get your facts straight before spouting off wrongful & slanderous statements about someone. It only makes you seem a fool. Lastly, Mr. Jeremy made a very valid point. This is not the first time the Wrangler has been accused of discrimination, & I believe it probably won’t be the last. It’s not my business…. I suppose the owner of the business has the right to discriminate against any part of the gay community he cares to…it is a free country. The only point that you made which was correct, Jon, is that we, as bar patrons, most certainly have the right to take our business elsewhere….
And please please do take your business elsewhere. The great thing about that Wrangler is that it isn’t a drama club over-ran by drag queens. You have every other bar in town to patronize and I’m sure they welcome you with open arms. (well, the ones you haven’t been 86’d from yet anyway)
Actually let me tell you something TOM. I work in the entertainment business, not as a drag queen, but I dress up- enough for the Wrangler to deny me entry even though I have worked in almost every club in this cow town. I travel due to my work. One time, due to a tight flight schedule I had to be dressed up prior to traveling. I went thru TSA (I suspect you don’t get out of your little gay bubble much, I am referring to the airport security) ‘dressed up’, there weren’t any questions or issues. The Wrangler is the one looking for drama. This place needs to be shut the fuck down.
Thanks Steve!
Let’s assume that “Steve” and “Jeremy” are actually correct. I’ll give them the benefit of the doubt here, even though I don’t remember there ever being an event even similar to “Aberican Idol” at the Wrangler… ever….
You do know that management has changed, and you do know that staffing has changed. Clearly, last years 2nd place winner was welcomed and invited back. So now what? Even if your claims are accurate, this wouldn’t be the case anymore, right? Move on, and continue to NOT spend your money at the bar. Judging by last weekend when I was there with my straight brother and sister-in-law (who had a FABULOUS time)…. I don’t think they missed you….
Secondly, if you OBJECTIVELY look at the case presented here……….and JUST this case, the law in question wasn’t designed to protect Vito as a “trans-woman”, as he has openly admitted he is not transgendered. Let me put it another way: If Vito had said “they didn’t let me in because I’m black”, would this have even made Nic Garcia blink twice? Of course not, because obviously he’s not African American (my neighbor tells me to not use African American, and just refer to her as “black” because she grew up in Detroit…not Africa….but I’m trying to be polite here). I would say the same applies here, because he’s not a Trans Woman.
And for the record, I was there that Saturday night…on the patio. I’m surprised that Phil didn’t point out that Vito asked him to explain and define what “trans” meant…. AND THEN PULLED OUT THE PHONE TO RECORD….
I have to say, I love the Wrangler. I guess tonight I’ll have to order a dozen more drinks and just dump them out. I’ll make up for the money Jeremy and Steve would have spent. Hell, maybe I’ll just buy the entire bar a round…. (at like 8pm when they aren’t packed to the gills…I’m not feeling THAT generous!) 🙂
Has anyone considered that the patrons of the Wrangler aren’t interested in hanging out with drag queens? They would lose business from their regular patrons–who pay their bills. The Wrangler is not a charity, or social organization; they’re a business. They are successful because they know their niche and their clientele’s expectations. Many men are glad to have a place that caters to men FOR men. If you don’t like it, go to the X Bar. There are plenty of places for everyone to go.
As it happens Sam I love the wrangler it is the only bar I go to when I visit back home. I still have my invitation from the grand opening pre party and some of my most fondest memories are at the wrangler. I am aware of management and staff changes but let’s not be silly they don’t want never have wanted drag queens in the bar. I’m fine with that but don’t pretend it’s something else.
I love the Wrangler and it’s staff. I will continue to spend my gay dollar there. Vito’s 15 minutes is down to 20 seconds…tick…tick…tick.
Great article! I was one of the observers who hooked up with Marzano on Facebook after I viewed his YouTube video of the incident (thanks Samantha Thunder). I think the Wrangler is so bear-centric they don’t like femmes and that’s a problem and I think Marzano has a case. I’m glad he’s using the justice system to resolve this issue. I love the occasional purse, make-up kit and dress myself and now I’m scared of having that kind of fun if plans include the Wrangler. On the other hand, my friends Craig C and Patrick Brown practically run that joint’s scene and I had to sign out of the Boycott Wrangler Facebook group because I didn’t want to go that far. The bar was surveilling those protest groups online. How Big Brother is that. Craig djs a Wrangler night called Sweet. That sounds kinda femme. Maybe a group of you guys should do a bit of drag and attend and see where the door policy is at after the scandal hit the press.
This is why I pretty much go to straight bars – they don’t discriminate against the GLBT community as much as the gay bars do. The Wrangler does do good on Sundays in terms of charities, but it’s also obvious they hide behind this ‘good’ side of them in order to discriminate as well.
I’ve been going to the Wrangler for many years. It was opened as a MEN’S BAR where men go to meet men. If all the women (straight and lesbian and wanna-be) don’t understand this, I don’t get it. If the bar has a policy which you don’t agree with for whatever reason, just don’t go there. There really is NO REASON to try to ruin them with a lawsuit. If they appear to not want your business, don’t give it to them. But, by the same token YOU don’t have the right to shut the bar and deny ME the right to patronize their establishment. Our society has become WAY TOO litigious, suing over every stupid little thing that offends us. Grow up and act like an adult and get on with your life. There are far too many REAL injustices going on around you. Not being allowed into a bar for whatever reason) IS NOT that serious! Not everybody is going to like you everywhere all the time (especially in drag). I’d wager that if this individual tried this at a straight bar, they’d have problems too (and possibly get beat up – though I’m not condoning this). I personally like the idea that there is a bar in Denver that one can go and not necessarily run into drag queens. If you are “dressed” and want to go out, simply go somewhere that that sort of dress isn’t a problem (like Charlie’s, for instance). I may be the only gay man in the world who doesn’t feel the need to be constantly surrounded by drag queens, but that’s the way I see it. Why is that such a difficult solution for some people? I’m pretty sure that at least some of what I have said here will anger somebody somewhere. I had to say what some of those people with permanent chips on their shoulders need to hear.
This case is ridiculous. Typically histrionic. Would a “trans woman” in a full burka or niqab expect to be served, too? If the bar staff can’t tell if you’re fish nor fowl, then your outfit is over the top. Change. News flash: you can’t wear a face mask into your bank, either. Sheesh.
So what. I used to go out with a guy whose eyes changed color. His license said they were hazel, but if he wore a certain color shirt he’d get turned away at the door because they looked blue. It was just one of those things.
This is such bs, this guy is just looking to file a lawsuit and get some money. The bar did the right thing, plus he does not look anything like his ID, he must be 30 pounds heavier in the ID photo then in the photo at the bar. The cops are always trying to bust bars by sending underage people to see if they get in. They have business to protect, if you want to be a women get the operation and change your id, this isnt 1953.
I totally agree with you Lynn, this is all bs by a bunch of trouble makers who seem to have a personal agenda against the owners of the bar. It’s petty and no lawyer worth a grain of salt would take this case.
So you’re comparing the door at The Wrangler to airport security? When was your head injury and haven’t they located a willing donor monkey so you can have a brain again?
I don’t see how that makes it any different. So, it’s ok to discriminate against Drag Queens? And there are MULTIPLE trans people and people who were mistaken as trans who have come forward and said they too were turned away. I think the Wrangler’s policiy is despicable. But, since I hear that the “JR’s” attitude now prevails, they can keep the place. Policy change or not. I doubt I’ll ever go back.
What is the Wrangler’s policy during Halloween? I highly doubt that people match their appearance in their costumes with that of their issued ID. I think it IS discriminatory and completely unacceptable.
Why is our community within ourselves so intolerant? We as gay people come in all colors of the rainbow and we should embrace that fact not thwart it!
Thought-provoking post . Incidentally , if someone was looking for a AirServ Application for Employment , my business partner found a blank document here
https://goo.gl/I7j6N5“I’m here every day for a meeting, to sit down and talk to people,” Newland said. “We are not transphobic. (The policy) is not discriminatory, it’s consistent.”